Wendy McCallum (00:02.794)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the coaching edge. I'm your host, Wendy McCallum, and I have a really great guest today. I've got Beck Kean with me here today. Hey, Beck, how are you? Hello, I'm so good. How are you? I'm great. I'm so glad you're here because we're going to talk about some, I think probably the most commonly raised angst in the groups of coaches that I support around business development is the topic of sales. People are
really stressed out about their ability to sell and how to sell. And most people will say right out of the gate, like if I asked them, what's the one piece of their business that they dislike the most? It is sales. So I was really excited to get you on here today, because you have a different way of talking about sales, you have, um, I just, I think a really fresh perspective on it. You have tons of experience. You've been coaching now for seven years plus, I think.
And it's also in alignment with the way that I sell. So the way that you sell and the way that I sell are really quite similar, I think. So I thought you would be a fabulous person to come in and share some of your really great expertise around this topic. So thank you for coming in and agreeing to chat with me today. Thank you for having me. So I love talking about sales. I love sales. So I just want to infuse more people with that energy because when you love selling like.
anything that becomes possible in terms of your income. Like what a shift. Yeah, and I want to get people to a place where they're like, instead of, I hate sales. They feel like I love sales. I'm not afraid of sales at the very least. Like let's get them to a place where they're not afraid of it. It doesn't feel like a terrifying prospect to get on a discovery call or a, or a sales call with someone. So what, like, can you, maybe there's a, there are like a couple of little points and there's so much we could talk about on this topic, but like, where would you, where do you want to start on this conversation? What feels like the,
biggest roadblock for coaches when it comes to selling? Like what do you think pushes people into that place of despising it so much most often? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a few things like number one, so many of us have been sold to in a very specific, patriarchal kind of masculine energy sort of way that doesn't feel, that didn't feel good to be on the receiving end of that. And so we,
Wendy McCallum (02:23.638)
because so many of us have been taught, we'll call them inauthentic sales practices, or even unethical sales practices, we don't want to do that to other people. We know how that feels, we didn't like it, so we don't wanna be part of the problem. And that's what holds people back instead of thinking of, okay, well, if that way didn't work for me, then how do I like being sold to? What is a way that I have enjoyed
buying something and what does that buying experience look like and modeling that then for our prospective clients. So it's sort of like to start off on the big picture of things, it's like the overall conditioning that we've received around selling would be the big one. And then if we take that down to a more everyday level, I think it's the energy, at least what I hear with my people is they feel like they have to convince people.
to buy something. And so what they don't wanna do is push, hustle, or come at that like convincing energy. And that's actually exactly what they say. They're like, I don't wanna have to convince someone to buy coaching. Right. So I'm like, great, let's not convince people, right? And I think the biggest problem is that, that a lot of coaches are marketing.
and framing their marketing, their content, their social media with a lens to convince a buyer. And such an easy shift before you've even done any selling is to think about how can I market to people who are already shopping for the very thing that I have, for the solution that I offer, which happens to be coaching. And I don't know what the stats are.
Wendy, but they're huge, right? The number of people who are investing in themselves, the number of people who are out there looking for coaches. I know the coaching industry is like, I don't wanna say one of the most rapidly growing industries, but it's one of the growing industries. People are shopping for coaches. So instead of thinking about, I have to convince someone that coaching is worth it or that I'm a good coach, we wanna, it's like,
Wendy McCallum (04:44.53)
even before you market from your own energy, from your energetic body, it's being in your power of coaching is life-changing, but coaching changes lives. That's what I'm offering. And then from that place, to the people who are looking for coaches, what is it that they need to hear to know that I'm the right fit for them? So one of the things I talk about with my people is like your...
your best, your buyers are best fit shopping. That's who you wanna be talking to, the ones who are already looking for coaching. And they're just trying to figure out, are you the right coach for them? And if we come at it with that energy, it's like, oh, I don't need to, like, this is not a sales, this isn't even really a sales conversation. This is a, like, let's get to know each other and see if I'm a fit. Right. Sorry if that's my.
No, no, that's okay. Didn't hear anything. But yeah, that's, that's exactly how I start every, every discovery call is this is not this isn't a sales call. This is an opportunity for me to get to know you better you to get to know me and for us to figure out well, whether we're a good fit, because I really believe. That the person I'm working with needs to be a good fit for me as a coach to like we both need to fit. It's not just a matter of me being the right coach for them, but are they the right client for me and can I really
help them in the way that they're looking for help and support. So I love that. Talk about for a second, I've heard you talk about this before the idea of sort of the difference between the convincing versus showing up with an invitation. Yeah. So convincing would be needing to demonstrate, for example, the value of coaching the way I coach
maybe giving you a free session to convince you that coaching is the thing you want to do. Coaching can, or convincing can also look like in marketing, like five reasons why you should work with a life coach versus this is the type of coaching that I do with my clients. So convincing can.
Wendy McCallum (07:02.77)
And I mean, there's all kinds of different levels of this, but at sort of the pure organic form, I mean, I see it as people who feel like they need to demonstrate the value of coaching versus embodying the value of coaching is inherent in what it is. It's like transformational work and then showing up from that space. And when we show up from that space versus the convincing energy, like...
People can smell convincing and lack and scarcity, and we tend to go into the convincing mode when we think that we need to get something from somebody else, when we're really hooked on, I need that client to buy, I need this person to say yes, I need them to pay in full, I need the money. We go into that convincing energy of like, I gotta demonstrate my worth and my value and they'd better sign up or else.
and we make what someone else is doing like mean something about us, also validate something that we need to be validating ourselves versus looking for that external feedback. Right, yeah, totally agree. I think one of the best tricks I ever learned around this is was how to do exactly what you're talking about, detach from the outcome and have the outcome be almost irrelevant.
The measure of success for me in a call with somebody about coaching is whether we have a conversation that's actually really informative for me. It's, you know, the goal of the call is to gather information, it's not to sell for me, and it's to make an invitation. If it feels like a good fit, it's to offer, it's to say, this is what I have to offer. But it's not, the success of the call is not based on whether the person decides to accept the offer, and as you say, like step through the doors or not. It's...
Uh, for me it's, well, how did I show up on that call? And if I showed up truly, you know, in a very authentic and genuine way as myself on that call and we're not a great fit, then all that means is that we're not a great fit. And I will always try to find somebody the right fit. Um, but it's not about whether I make the sale or not. If that call is successful. Yes. Yeah. And I think what happens a lot of the times is people think coaches think if I make the sale.
Wendy McCallum (09:21.058)
then XYZ, then I'm worthy, then I'm successful, then I'm on my way, then I did a good job. And when we attach so much weight to that, everything just sort of feels like this big old threat and we better make it otherwise we're not successful versus like, could I show up on this call, hold space for this person, whether they decide to step through that door or not completely up to them, but what their choice is, is
not a reflection of me and whether I'm enough or worthy or any of that stuff. And it gets really tricky because if we're searching and seeking for validation through a successful sales call, a person saying yes to a sale, let's say, then as we grow our business and as we scale and start making more and more money, we're becoming dependent on
that ding of a sale or a strike notification to validate something that shouldn't need to be validated by a sale. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Another thing that I hear a lot around sales calls is, and I think this like harkens back to what you're talking about the old sort of patriarchal model, which is really more of like a pushy, the pushy, when you think about pushy sales, where people are trying to like close the deal. And a lot of the coaches that I work with,
don't feel comfortable with the whole trying to close the deal thing. And I know that in some of the coaching certifications that I've done, we've actually been taught to try to get a credit card number before the calls over, which is something I have never done. Um, and I am a big believer myself in giving people time. I always say this isn't a high pressure sales call. I'm going to give you time to decide if you're ready to go at the end of the call. Great. We'll get going. If you're not, you can take some time and get back to me and I'll follow up with an email with you and I tell them what to expect in that process.
What do you think about that whole idea of like trying to get payment and get people locked in during the course of a sales call? Yeah, off my, this listening to you like totally activated my nervous system. Right. Because my first coach, that was her thing. Like she was like, you have to get payment. And I was like, oh, that just doesn't feel good to me.
Wendy McCallum (11:41.254)
And I did it for maybe two months and I was like, I can't, like, I can't do this. It's too, like, it was too much for my nervous system. It felt like too much for the other person's nervous system. And it was like, I don't want to be that rushy, pressurey, pushy kind of energy. Like if someone is not willing to go into their email after our call and click a link and insert their credit card, like within one or two days, probably not committed to coaching. So like
why are we trying to like seal this deal? What I started to shift to instead, and which is what I teach is like around holding space for someone's objections. And to me, there's a real gift in, you know, someone does have a price objection or they need more time or they say they're not ready. They have some form of objection. They wanna move forward, but then they say like, oh, but what about blah, blah. That to me is an entry point.
and it's a place where you as a coach can ask questions and you can dig into what the underlying fear is. So if someone says, you know, it's too expensive, I don't have the money and that's indeed true, totally fine. But if it's sort of like the surface level belief, which 99% of the time it is, there's something underneath that. They're afraid of stepping in. They're afraid it won't work for them. And so rather than get someone's credit card, I would actually rather take that
10 minutes and talk about what is coming up for them in terms of the fears around the investment or the coaching of the container because once I know what their fears are it's like then I can hold space for that and we can have a really powerful conversation. So yeah I'm not really into taking credit cards. Yeah I knew you were good that was a loaded question I knew what your answer was going to be it was a what we used to call a leading question but I think it's an important thing to
because I think a lot of people are still teaching that. And I think the assumption is that needs to happen. And I think when people get on sales calls, they're expecting it to happen. So if you can like take the volume down, like by half, by saying at the beginning of the call, by the way, I'm not gonna require your credit card at the end of this call. And this is the purpose of the call. And you can set it up as very clearly being a completely different model of conversation or sales. I think that that's actually
Wendy McCallum (14:05.366)
very helpful and can really serve you when it comes to actually making a sale. To be honest, I think the way that I sell is very effective. And it feels good to me, which means that, you know, my, whatever you said, it was your nervous system. My nervous system on a call is not behaving that way. It's really calm because there's no agenda. There's no expected outcome. The whole goal is just to have a conversation that feels authentic and genuine and to get some more information. And so
from that place, it's a lot easier for me to say in a really authentic way, I would be so stoked to work with you. I think you're a perfect fit for what I have to offer. Let me tell you a little bit about that. And it just feels really natural. And then if there is you know, sometimes a lot of the time, actually, a little say sign me up. Yeah, you know, which is testament, I guess, to that approach, because it doesn't involve me asking them for the credit card, they're just offering it to me. And sometimes they'll say, like you said, there'll be a price objection, or they'll want to take a day to think about it or whatever.
um in which case you can ask those follow up questions get curious about it and do some coaching from that place which can be really helpful yeah or sometimes they just don't want to be pressured honestly for me i'm immediately turned off if someone's telling me that i need to give them my credit card right away but and sometimes i already know i'm gonna sign up i just personally don't want to do it on i like i want to be the person to take the initiative i don't want it to feel like it's important to me to be the person
who sends the message back and says, I'm ready. Instead of having, I don't know how to explain, articulate that really clearly, but like it is actually important to me. Even if I know I'm absolutely gonna purchase that thing, I want to be the person to do that in like a proactive way as opposed to being responsive. Well, yeah. And I think what you're talking about is like the difference between a buyer that needs to be led or guided and a self-led buyer. Right.
And I know for me and in my mastermind, my one-to-one, so like my more premium higher ticket offers, I require that you are self-led because in that container, you come in, you bring your stuff, you get some coaching, you go take action. I need people who are leading themselves. And that means that's the type of person who's going to reach out to me on Instagram and after binge watching or reading my content or something, maybe I don't even know they exist or maybe they saw me coach somewhere.
Wendy McCallum (16:30.75)
They're gonna come to me and they're gonna say like, hey, like you're the coach for me, I love your energy. Can you tell me about your offers or how can I work with you? They're approaching me, they're self-led. Right. And from that perspective, it's like that's, I know that's the ideal person versus someone who's in a different place and maybe they go into a completely different offer, like more of a group kind of program. Yeah, yeah, no, I 100% agree with that. I mean, I just, as an example, for the people who are listening, I think it was maybe two weeks ago.
I mean, I still get coached. I have coaches who coached me in various areas of my life. I really believe in the power of coaching, but I was stuck on something and I just needed somebody to talk it through with. And I didn't, it never crossed my mind to call anybody else. And I sent back a message and I was like, can we just get together for an hour? Which is probably not something you normally do, but you did it for me, which was so great. And I didn't, the cost of that session was irrelevant to me, to be perfectly honest. I knew the value in getting clarity on that decision was
it's close to priceless, to be perfectly honest. And so I was that person who was ready already ready to purchase, ready to like knew the value on the on the value question, something I talk a lot to my coaches about is about the importance of
really believing in the value of whatever it is you are offering. So, you know, getting so I absolutely am with you on just generally the transformative power of coaching. But I do think when we're putting an offer together and there's a price associated with it, we have to believe it is worth that and so much more. And if we come to a call with absolutely no doubt that this price is one hundred percent reasonable for this amazing service that we provide, the sales conversation.
is completely different. I see people trying to sell things that they're like, oh, I don't know, is this price too high? Oh, I think I'm overshooting it here or, you know, and you can get into this sort of panic place from it. And it's so obvious to the person on the other end of the call. But if you come in, I teach, I don't know what you teach about this, but I teach my people to like, the price is like two seconds of the conversation. Like we're not spending a lot of time talking about the price of the program. Like I just drop it and I move on.
Wendy McCallum (18:44.618)
Yeah, this is the price you can pay in these two ways. And then I'm onto something else. Because that's not the point of the sales call. It's not to talk about the price. And I 100% believe in the value of whatever the thing is that I'm offering in that call. And that's, you know, that's not for me, doesn't need to be a focus of the call. And as soon as it becomes a focus of the call, it starts to get really uncomfortable. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's like, is that, is the person who's questioning the price
really the right fit for the offer. So what you described there was like the conviction, what I would talk to coaches about as like the conviction behind the offer. Like you have to be so solid, so grounded, so sure in the value of the offer, in your ability to deliver the value of that offer, that the energy that is coming from you and emanating from you is almost like,
I want to say contagious, but it's more like it.
it gives surety and confidence to the person that you're in front of. Yeah. Because if we doubt our offer and we doubt our prices, that's going to reflect in the conversation or even your marketing and your content. And so as you're growing your coaching business, like I think about it, every level of sales, like when I was first starting, I probably charged $5,000 for a six month coaching package.
I was convicted that I could deliver $5,000 worth of coaching. Right. My number has now five acts, like it's 25 K for six months. I'm still just as convicted in the value of that offer. And so it's like, you have to be able to get behind your offers, the value, what you're delivering, you have to be your own cheerleader. Cause when you come from that place, man, like sales are just so easy.
Wendy McCallum (20:44.438)
Totally. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. And part of that is obviously not overpricing yourself too, which I do think is really important. I think beginning coaches who are starting out don't have, haven't built up confidence yet are gonna have a really hard time selling themselves at a really high price point. It's gonna be a challenge. Of course, duh, you have to do it for a while. You have to see that transformation. You have to...
I think you have to build your own confidence in your ability to coach and what it is you do really, really well in order to put together, first of all, a package that feels like your secret sauce that you're selling. And so you're like, you just feel so great about it and also to price it at, you know, that higher, a higher ticket price. And so I am, I'm not a fan of this. Like everybody just needs to have this really high ticket offer out of the gate. I think it's a bad idea for starting coaches. And I think you and I are,
examples of people who've been in this industry for a long time and my prices have changed drastically since I started. Yeah. But as I get better, as I learn more, as I gain confidence over the years, I feel very differently about the value of the service I provide. I've never provided bad coaching ever. I want to be clear, but the more you do it,
And the more other types of things you do, which is also, I think, a relevant part of this conversation in terms of pricing, like when you're at a point where you're offering group programs and you're doing speaking engagements and these types of things where you're getting paid a different amount of money for an hour of your time, everything starts to shift. And if you're at a point where you need your time back because you're too busy, the value of that time starts to shift. It feels differently to you. So there are all these different things that I think come into this equation.
I'm curious what you think about putting your prices on the website. Cause this is another conversation we have all the time. So disclosing your prices upfront versus like just disclosing them on the. Yeah. When I probably the first gosh, several years of coaching and it sort of goes back to like who I was mentored by. And, um, and actually she had told me I was, would have been charging like five K for six months. She told me to make it 15 K and I just wasn't ready. Like.
Wendy McCallum (22:56.222)
It was probably worth 15K, but I couldn't say 15K out of my mouth. And so that wouldn't have served me and I wouldn't have been able to sell it. I sold a bunch of 5K packages. I got confident about the value of those 5K packages. And then I raised my rates incrementally from there. Just, you know, to your point on that. Um, and in terms of, and this was, this was the same coach who told me like not to put my prices on my website because.
you would get a price objection before getting someone on a call. And the thing to do is to get them on a call, coach them through their price objection, and then charge them high ticket. So that's what I did for a long time. And then finally, when I woke up to like, actually, it doesn't have to be that way. I was just like, F it. I'm putting my prices in the application form and it probably says something like coaching with me ranges from 5k to a VIP day to 20k for six month coaching package. If that's not a fit for you, um, feel free to join my group, which, and here's the link like.
I would rather just be super transparent with my prices. And what's more important to me, if someone were to DM me and say, hey, I wanna coach with you, like how much is it? I say something like, I'm a hundred percent open to sharing the investment with you, but before I do, I just love to know a bit more about what kind of support you're looking for. Cause I'm not gonna sell coaching to just, just because someone can pay 10K or 20K doesn't mean I want them as a client. Doesn't mean that they're the right fit for me.
And that's also something that happens as like you're coaching matures. It's like you put the right people in the right containers and you move the wrong people out of those containers. And that requires that you be discerning and you ask questions about the other person through to your point about like getting to know each other before saying yes. Yeah, no, I think that's really smart.
I kind of do that hybrid model too, where my prices are not on my website. And that's for me, deliberate. I had them on for a long time and then I took them off and I found it actually worked way better for me. So it was just an experiment thing, but I'm also never going to not tell someone. Yeah. Like I'm just not that person who's like, you'll have to wait for the call. So I don't do that. Yeah. No, thanks. There's no, there's a, there's a place on an application form, depending on the program, like, so if it was a.
Wendy McCallum (25:06.698)
It really does depend on what the thing is. I'm usually gonna wanna have a conversation with them about what they're looking for and whether they're a good fit. But depending on the program, there's a place that says, do you have any other questions for me on the application form? And if the question that comes back is, how much does it cost? Then I'm just gonna give them the cost and say, if you're still interested, and I'd love to meet with you and discuss whether this is a good fit for you. So I think you can like figure out what works best for you on that, but there's no like hard and fast rule on it, except like you need to be,
I think the reason why we're not transparent in our pricing is because we don't believe in it. We're afraid of it. And so if you can get to a place where you feel really confident in your pricing and really good about your pricing, then you will it eliminates all the fear. Yes. Yeah. Agreed. What would you say? So this is probably something you deal with a lot. I know it's something you deal with because I follow you on social media. You should follow back on social media, by the way. What's your Instagram? Is it just at Beck Keene?
It's Beck underscore keen K E N. But yeah, there's an underscore in between first and last name. Yeah, master of stories. If you want to learn how to do Instagram stories, follow back. Yeah, just come watch my stories. It's like a whole masterclass and all the things. It really is. It really is. I learned something every time I go check her stories out. So the question I have relates to changing rates and raising rates and how you
coaches through that process. Because I see people under pricing constantly. So I mean, there's a fine line. Like I know we just said, don't go out the door with a high ticket offer if you don't believe in the value of that. And you're still building your confidence. But there's also the other end of the spectrum, which is where people start out, they're pricing themselves so low, they have no chance of building a sustainable business based on that rate. And that's usually where I start is like with,
you know, give people a bit of a revenue calculator so they can calculate how many packages they would need to sell in order to hit a monthly income goal. And I like, just like as a super general rule, if you have a signature offer and you can like a six month coaching package, let's say, if you can sell two to three of those in a month to hit your monthly goal, that's sort of a good starting place, I think.
Wendy McCallum (27:30.818)
That rule doesn't always work, but it's a bit of a general guideline. I like people to get them selling their offers. And it's sort of like, I say something like, create the problem. So it's okay to find yourself in a place where you're like, oh my gosh, that didn't feel good. I'm coaching way too much. I'm not making enough money. Great, we've created a problem. We now need a solution. The solution being you raise your rates.
Right. And I usually guide people depending on where they're at. I mean, if they're selling coaching for like a hundred bucks an hour, I probably wouldn't say give people a chance to buy at your old rate. I would say you need to get everyone over to the new rate. Right. And the other thing I talk about with increasing pricing, actually, this is a conversation we had in my group this morning, is that we need to let go of the concept that when we raise our rates, we're having to convince and bring our old people.
into place. Yeah, they're already there. Well, we just speak to the person and it might be a different audience. It might be a new person, but there are people out there. It's like, you got it. You have to be a vibrational match for the ideal client. And there are some clients who are legitimately, they don't want to buy what you're selling because it's too low. It looks cheap.
they're not comfortable with it. Like I would not invest in a coach personally who was charging a low rate. Cause in my mind it would, I'd be like, oh, they're, they're not confident and they can't match my power. Right. I actually spent the last entire year. I have not disclosed this, I spent the last year not having a coach because I literally could not find someone who I felt like matched my level of power and capacity. Right. And
So we have to be the type of coach who's like standing firm in our belief, in our ground, in our confidence, in our conviction, holding the rates, whatever that is for us and whatever way that feels good so that we're a vibrational match for our ideal client. And we're not gonna be a match if we are under pricing ourselves. Right. Or if we're way over pricing ourselves.
Wendy McCallum (29:48.95)
Like it's, you've got to find the place that feels really good to you. And I think this is really a good place to be doing like a gut check. Cause I can, I can, I can always tell with coaches when they know they're under pricing. And I can, I can also tell when they feel like they're, they're reaching too high and it doesn't feel good to them. So it's a really good place to listen to your gut, but also for the love of God, people look at the market rates and do not price yourself too low. You know, there are studies out there that have been done that show like the average
you know, the average hourly rate that coaches are charging, like pay attention to that stuff. Don't go out of the gate too low because you just can't, you can't sustain it. It's impossible. You either have to be working with so many private clients that you're going to burn yourself out or you just don't even have it. You don't have a shot because your rates are too low. Yeah. So agreed. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much good stuff here. I can't believe we're at a half an hour already. I would like to keep talking to you forever. Maybe I'll have you back. We could do like sales 2.0.
We totally can do sales 2.0, but I did want to have this, this really kind of basic conversation here on the coaching edge, because so many new coaches are listening to this podcast or coaches who are at that place. They feel like they're, they've just sort of plateaued with their business and they're really looking to take it to the next level. And Beck is really, really great at the sales stuff. She's great at all kinds of things, but the sales stuff in particular, I really love her approach on it and the way she talks about it. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing some of your wisdom with us today, Beck. Yeah.
Where can people find out? We've talked about your Instagram. Where else can people find you? They can head to my website, beckykean.com and I've got a shop page on there where there's all kinds of free stuff but also some little mini courses on kind of sales, selling 1.0 and a couple of different little offers there. But the easiest way is yeah, come find me on Instagram, say hi in the DMs, I'd love to get to know you and.
And even tell me where you're stuck. Like I might have a couple little pointers for you. Amazing. Okay. Well, I'm going to put all the, I've got a bunch of URLs that'll stick in the show notes. So if you're, if you can't find back on Instagram, just come and look at the show notes. Thanks again. You are the, you really are a master on this some sales conversation stuff. Thank you so much for having me.
